as we've been talking about the first amendment, the first amendment sent a collection development rubric that the first amendment collection retention rubric. when you get right down to it, why don't we bring the books in, the library in the first place when we bring the books into the schools in the first place? a of it has to do with anti-discrimination and the relevance of those books and we live in a society where gay marriage interracial marriage is allowed legally in. finally, thank god where we've got supreme court like the bastet case, which says transgender people should have a right to employment. i mean, if we're at the first amendment as as the only reason to bring something in, then only means that it's illegal. like what are the positive, affirming reasons to bring something into your to your library, whether it's a school library or a public library and why do we publish and what do we publish? it's to lift up those stories, bring those ideas forward in that rights. affirmative sort of way. so i would like to really root this conversation not just in

the principles of the first amendment, but in that anti framework that says people have a right to exist to have their stories told, to have their voices heard. kelly jensen amanda jones, raegan miller and john chrastka, i want to thank you for joining us for this today. that's going to do it for our morning program here at the u.s. will be back in the afternoon to talk about all things digital and and budgets and post-pandemic. thank you all for hello and welcome back to the afternoon program of libraries are essential at the us book show. i'm richard albany's senior writer publishers weekly. and this afternoon we're going to pick up the program, the discussion focusing on digital resources in libraries in the wake of the. when covid 19 forced the nation into lockdown three years ago, digital library lending hit stratospheric new levels.

and so it turns out, did book sales go figure? but now here we are. the pandemic protocols are over. but the impact of the pandemic is with us. and of course, it isn't just about the pandemic, the murder of george floyd in police custody spurred a long overdue social and racial racial justice awakening and of equity are also foremost on the minds of who are working to meet needs of their diverse communities, where they are. so our for first discussion this afternoon we wanted hear a little bit about where we are now in the digital library space post-pandemic and we have three great leaders here with us to discuss where we are and where things still need to go. edward melton is executive of the harris county public library, texas, where he oversees 26 branches, serving nearly 2 million residents in 2022. harris county had the fourth most digital checkouts in the nation via overdrive. welcome. ellen paul is the executive director. the connecticut library consortium nonprofit membership group serving over hundred and

50 academic public and special libraries across the great of connecticut. alan, thanks for joining us today and lisa rosenblum is director of the king county library system in. washington, one of the busiest systems in the king county, consistently ranks as one of the nation's leaders in digital in 2022 just edged out library. the second most digital checkouts in the nation via overdrive and lisa and that was also part of this digital discussion the first libraries are essential program in 2021. so it's going to be great to get her perspective two years later. lisa, welcome welcome. so to start us off, i wanted to get a sense of where we are today in the library. we're going to talk about digital, but course, you're not just digital libraries, you're libraries. so can you give us a sense of where things stand in terms of k counts, circulation numbers and also in terms of digital lending, both e-books and. lisa, why don't start with you.

thank you. thank you for inviting me. it's great to be back two years later. so i would say that we're in flux here and i have to that the experience we had with covid shutdowns on the west coast did not mirror the rest of the country. we were pretty well shut down for a very long time, both in-person and then doing curbside. so the numbers i'm going to share with you reflect kind decisions from our our governor regarding it was safe to open. so what we're seeing is our library our library visits are down about. 2% from 2019. now we're gradually coming up. but that that's, i think, repeated across the country and our physical we were down 29% through 2019. and again, we're growing our physical circulation is coming back. but it's a process.

it's a slow process as people come back into the library, rediscover they loved before at our counter able and feel safe now coming into our. great. edward roughly following about 36% in terms of people coming in our doors but we've been seeing the increase of about 4000 patrons per month in terms of visiting increasing each month. and so this significantly greater month month compared to pre-print prepared levels. so in terms of our circulation, our first physical circulation are about 90% of the pre-pandemic levels. but the increase in digital circulation have actually the highest overall overall circulation since 2011 with digital, it has shown harris county public library is still seeing a steady increase. about 20% growth in digital

circulation annually. the last year before the pandemic, we circulated about 10.5 million items with. 7.7 million being physically circulation. so physical circulation and the remaining 2.7 being digital in 2022. however, we're certainly in about 12.3 million items, with 6.9 million in physical items and 5.4 in digital items. okay. elon what are you hearing from connecticut libraries? right. it is it is mirroring the country here in connecticut. our circulation is still down from 2019. we did see a nice little boost in the last year. we still have a long way to go. i kind of want to hone in the one you're your kind of question in about you know did the pandemic accelerate that adoption of digital readers at the library. and you know i want to say kind of here in connecticut, i'm not sure that we actually know that.

we certainly know that the percentage of digital lens as a portion of circulation as whole increased. but i feel like just data point alone doesn't answer your question. i think you know circulation of digital. is really just like one part of the you know one variable in digital trends libraries. i think we have to kind of remember that during height of that pandemic, most libraries shifted their collection budgets to increase their spending on digital rather than physical materials. and so my question sort of is, is it actually the demand for digital burrows increased or was it because the influx in funds that libraries were finally able to meet the demand that has been there sort of all along. so, you know, i think need a little bit more data on numbers of borrowers here in canada.

the percentage of folks who have a library card has declined over the last five years. so i have hard time believing that the pandemic in an influx of new borrowers. i of feel like the you know the influx money into digital borrowing drove those collection numbers and that libraries were actually just feeding that demand that's been there all along. you know here in connecticut, you know pandemic is waning. budget budgets are shifting back to be born. balance between physical and digital and digital borrowing of digital materials is dropping. so do we. does mean that the demand is no longer there? i don't think so. i believe that libraries just don't have the budgets support the demand anymore. that's interesting. i want to just jump right in and drill down on all that a little bit, too. you know, digital lending has been growing quite a bit over the last decade. right. but it hasn't been a straight line, but it's been going up.

what i wonder is like the pandemic was a huge curveball. obviously, we all got sort of forced into this experiment with digital content people who didn't read before suddenly had to they didn't really have a choice. libraries and bookstores were closed. i guess the question that i would follow up with is you what have we learned about what patrons want from the library how they use digital? are there any special insights that you gain during the pandemic pandemic that you are going to hold? are there any that it's that all just too way too early to know? this was an extraordinary circumstance. are we just unsure? is there anything you can take to the bank right now? alice, i'll go back with you. well, we learned is first of all, we went from formally in digital to 8 million over the last years, we have doubled our digital and, you know, king county has been an early adopter of digital and we heavily invested digital. we're now 5050. we are seeing an increase in

print. people are people like print. so what i would say is what we've learned from the pandemic, which we kind of knew, but it sort of cemented our thoughts as people like choice. people have discovered digital, but they turned their back on print or as i often said in the middle of the pandemic, when we had no vaccines and we offered curbside our curbside check out numbers were phenomenal i mean, people were willing to leave get their cars and pick up print. so that's that's prints not dead. i often say that print is not dead. however, people like choice. so for instance, they still like the 50 year old woman, still likes print book to read. but then if she has commuting or going on a walk, she wants to download the audiobook. and if she's traveling, she to download it to her ipad or kindle. so that is what we are seeing we offer choice and people have embraced choice. now than ever. i mean, that's huge increase

from 4 to 8 million. edward do you want to weigh in on this? i'd love to hear what you can take to the bank in harris county for us in harris county, we know that you know, because houston and harris counties such a large geographic area we know that we have a high in users in terms of people downloading audio books and so with that we we saw that even increased during the pandemic but it's just been steady in terms of how people utilize the resource. and i think that here a lot of people do listen to audiobooks but i agree with lisa you know it is about choice because we do have, you know, people who still want those print materials and and want the digital content and with the current digital content, we it's here to stay. we know that we we have to invest in it. and so now is for us to try to figure out how do we balance between maintain the print collection as well as the digital collection and how do we make sure that, you know, digital is kind of like the more money for the more you to going

to get it's just inevitable it happens way. so not so much in terms of print but with the digital that's where i think we really have to figure out our strategies and how do we have ways that we can be more efficient in. we provide those resources to the customer, especially when we talk about the cost of digital compared to print. right. alan, the word choice has been mentioned a couple of times here now and that sounds wonderful as a library user, as a consumer, i like i love choice. great. but it sounds like a challenge too for for libraries and library budgets choice. is that what you're seeing in connecticut as well that that's what you're your users want. yes. you i want to echo what lisa and edward said about choice. i a i was a library director during the pandemic, you know, march 2020. and it was awful, quite frankly.

but in the middle of all of that, the one thing that i sort of took away was that extraordinary things can still happen in the worst of circumstances. the library that i was at, we actually bucked the national trend, declining circulation. our circulation rose in 2020. from 2019, it rose in 2021. and we did that by being in lockstep with the feelings, the needs of our community, you, lisa, said that, you know, it took a long time to open up in washington. you know, it didn't take us as long to open up in connecticut. the governor gave us a lot of leeway to do what we wanted. and you in the early days, that meant shifting more money to digital. but as we reopened you know, it meant getting books physical books into our readers hands by any means necessary. in march of 2021. you know, we built this outdoor

life sized version of candyland. it sounds ridiculous. it's been a cold winter. people were tired of being cooped up at home and you could participate in this program without coming into the library. but if you wanted to come in, we were open. and the day we opened pre-registration, 1300 people signed up to participate. it was 10% of our town. and, you know, march 2021 was our best month of borrowing bar none. circulation of materials skyrocketed because people chose to engage with us. they chose to come into the building, and because we met them where we were. so my takeaway from the pandemic digital is great. it's an important component to the work we do, but we don't want to give up on our physical collections. we don't want to give up on the power of libraries to bring people together, even in these sort of uncertain and terrible times, audio has brought up a couple of times here, and i really want to ask about that too. i feel like, you know, we haven't given quite enough attention. the shift that's going on in digital audio now, the publishing side, it's gone from

being niche market to being an absolute huge business for publishers. we've had double digit growth, 20% growth for like a decade. and audio it's really become extreme important. libraries had digital audio from the outset. there hasn't had some of that. i mean, were e-books have been sort of a flashpoint audio is usually been available in libraries. i just, i really i'm wondering what can tell us about digital audio use in the library? are you still doing physical audio as well? is it all digital now? and popular? is it so much has changed has audio leveled up to? and i guess i'll i'll start with you again, lisa, of physical audio. i had to think back. what does that mean? and yeah we're still buying books. cd. i think i think the budget's going down. i often say that the card determines what we stop doing. so when stop producing cd

players them, then i give it ten years and then i get rid of the format, like memory cassettes. that's what happened same things we're, we're, we're circulating physical dvds. hard for me to believe that but they're if i got rid of that there be an unhappy i get a lot of unhappy emails but again with audio the thing that's really helped audio is remember the old days where you had a and it a separate device now everything's in the phone so just gotten easier for people to have one device you can use it to talk to people but also download your audio go for your walk drive across harris county. king county is very big, too, by the way. so that's what we're seeing. people love their audio books, but the problem is the problem is that they're the most expensive. and the other thing seeing and i don't know why more publishers haven't glommed onto this is i

don't know why audio books are just basically reading the book orally. i mean, there's so many things they could be adding to enhance the experience of an audio book. i think malcolm gladwell did that. i was listening to one of his audio books and he actually had sound effects. and so i think i'm not a publisher, but a thinks. i think with audiobooks there's a real opportunity to sort of enhance the experience and add effects, add a personal from people that you enter instead of just reading the interview, the person could actually be interviewed. so i just think it's, as you said, andrew, it's really a growth opportunity. yeah, i think we're starting to see a lot innovation and there's a lot of more innovation on tap coming in the audio market for sure. and what you seeing in harris county? i think too that people are also looking at the way consume audio. they used to be like, oh, it's not reading book. if you're listening to the audio i don't think that's true anymore. i think our of how we consume books has really evolved.

are you seeing that in harris county? so i think that, you know, with the audio, we think about people just listening to books, but also here we experience we have such a diverse population, people who are learning english for people who are, you know, literacy programs, utilizing those resources in, order to become more fluent in the language in english. and so we do utilize those resources in terms of even with our new literacy programs, we're children are enforcing the reading by listening to the audio book. and then even with the adult literacy class that we have, that's a good opportunity for them to listen and to understand the language. in terms of english in terms of them having access to those audio. and, you know, we always talk about, you know, the commuting in harris county and houston. i mean, they're great, a great opportunity for people be able to utilize those resources. in terms of the audio we're seeing in the same thing in connecticut. alan yes.

yeah. so back 2019 it was about 5050 borrowing the physical audio books, those books on cd versus the digital audio books. and fast forward to now we're seeing almost 75% of our audio books circulation and coming in that digital form. and, you know, i mean, it's a big challenge libraries because audio books are expensive, whether they're digital or physical. i am a little worried. however, that the problem will only be sort of further exacerbated by movement in the market towards that metered model for audio books, just like we saw for e-books. you know, back around 2012 rather than that one copy, one user, perpetual use model that we've been mostly operating. so that's going to be a real for library budgets. on the bright side, many librarians will finally be able to read their audio book collections, and it gives them a little grounds to free up some shelf space for other physical

materials that still being borrowed in their analog form. very interesting stuff. now, you know, prices were mentioned and budgets we certainly have to talk about this as he gets a little the discussion gets a little more intense. i think now we get into prices and budgets you know during the pandemic we saw this influx of you know government money and support many publishers discounted their digital products right that's kind of over i guess now. inflation uncertain economy. there's so many things that you have to sort of try to figure out now where are we in terms of library right now and we'll talk about the impact on various collections and otherwise. but can you give us a sense of where your budget situation is right now? and i've been going to you, lisa, to start this off. so i'm going to stay with that trend. lisa well, i mean, we're very customer focused and you know,

elon did bring up a really good point and you have to analyze are we getting more users or just users are using us more, the same users are using us more. so i think we need to do a deeper dive into. how many people, new people coming in and new patrons using our our digital formats, but nevertheless, we're at 50, 50, 50% digital whatever and 50% print. i have say the pricing really hasn't changed much. we're still spending a lot money more way more than what the consumer does to get the same product. and that is still i mean, i often i don't know why these publishers are a little more creative and just, you know, for some of these smaller and we're pretty lucky here. we're funded for a through property tax. so we have consistent stable funding. but even we are being pressed, you know, if the publishers come

up with a, you know, a lesser price point, more of these little consortia and would buy more. so you know that if you make something $80, you're going to get one. if you make it maybe 30, you might get more libraries buying more the product. but we're not seeing any changes really. we see leasing by time and we also see leasing by numbers. that's you know, we're seeing we saw some concurrent during covid. a publisher would say, give us a really good deal, especially on some of those titles. that was a great i think overdrive did that steve if you're watching. thank you. but we haven't seen that anymore. and so we found that that was great when. when you want a bunch of people to read title to have that flexibility, just have concurrent use that title for a month. everybody can read the book and discuss it. so we're looking for flexibility. we hope our publishers understand that we're good

partners, but we need flexibility, the kind of offerings that we get because. the one of the one things i will tell you, there's no. one formula, my library different from a smaller library is different from a consumer area. so we want flexibility to edward, how's the budget situation shaking out for you in harris county? how are you managing that? but we're pretty much flat in terms of, you know, increases in our budget in terms of what what we're spending on our collection. but i want to say that with publishers, i think that, you know, they should sit at the table with the industry and i'm talking about library to really figure out what are some models that work for that are flexible, like lisa said, that can work for all of us. you know, we understand they want to make money. we understand the writers need to make money we we all understand that the value of having a business and making profit. but at the same time, the publishers that public libraries

about open access to information. the more people read, the more they're going to use their product. and so if we figure out models included that conversation so that we can be of solution, we are librarians, we're all creative and we're knowledgeable in order to know what works for our systems. and what don't what doesn't work for us systems. and when we talk about metered access, you know, really, especially with case or places that have large populations, we need simultaneous use. and so with that, you know, how can we get use as a base rate without us having to just totally destroy our budget? the more people that have access to the materials, the it's going to drive people to we to be able to filter a reading so people people wanting to get content and access information. so the publishers need to come

to the table with us to be able to provide those models that works for whether it's a small system, a large system or a whatever the case might be and be flexible in how they approach in terms of the populations that we serve. yeah. elon, you want to weigh in here on the budget situation? sure. so when we talk about budgets for digital materials, i actually to go back a little bit further than the pandemic. when libraries in connecticut started lending digital books, you know, the cost for the digital book was about bucks and everybody was you know, everything was sold under that one copy, one user, perpetual access model. right. and then of course around like 2012, the metered model, the market and those costs, those digital books have increased 5 to 20% each year since then. so, you know, now here we are in 2023, 82% of the books that we purchase here in connecticut are on that metered model.

one of our e-book consortia is in connecticut, reports to me that they spend on average, $42 per title. now they only buy a one year metered license because that's all they can afford. you know, obviously, if they were to buy two year metered license, their average would be significantly higher. the consortium, as a whole this you know, this e-book consortium as a whole spends about $20,000 a month on content. remember connecticut small state so we're talking about the budgets for houston or king county over here, they spend about $20,000 a month on purchasing counter. and for about 30 towns across the state of connecticut. and still the average whole time a best seller is over six months. but they reported me that by the end of this year, they will have spent over $2 million of taxpayer dollars on e-books, not counting any platform fees.

and in the last ten years, they've lost over a million dollars worth of content. so like, yes, but purchasing content for your digital collection, you know, purchasing content for your digital is expensive and titles disappear after two years. and the holds lists six months long. and that makes budgeting challenging. and it's also just not a really great return on taxpayer investment. and can i just just say one thing, andrew? yeah, it's not only a bad on taxpayer investment, it's bad customer service because our public doesn't understand why do i have to wait six months for a book? they think that the library somehow we're not doing our job and it's frustrating for our staff because. we're doing the best we can for the self for those libraries. i get it that i have to wait six months. it's terrible. we don't have that problem here, but we still have like two or three month waiting period and for here because they expect a level of service, it just

doesn't reflect well on public libraries nationally that we this wait time. well. two years ago when we had this conversation, we were unsure what the future was going to look like. we were talking about maybe a reset for library e-books. so there's always been tension in the marketplace with publishers in libraries about where the prices and these licenses should work in libraries and i thought we were at a moment where things might start to change a little right. we were seeing skyrocketing sales along with rising digital lending rates, but it sounds to me like we're slipping right back into this whole contentious same old pattern. is that case? lisa well, i'm sorry. say yeah and i know that there's been some legislation out there to try to combat that it hasn't been totally success civil, but there is a movement to try to

kind of equalize the playing field and you know, i know we've talked before that some publishers are not sell to us or they limit the stock for libraries. so i would say i don't want to be overly negative, but i seen a change and maybe my other panelists have, but i haven't seen one. yeah, edward and eliot, are we sliding back into the same place that we were before the pandemic? did we learn nothing during this period? edward slow back and but i think that, you know, at the industry in terms of libraries we can start to slow you know, money we thought and when i say money talks if we as libraries systems band together and say we boycott for a month or two, then bang the digital and show them what that impact is economically in terms of their profit margins. we could they be forced to come

and sit at the table and talk to us in terms of what works, what systems work for our library. and so i think that we have to be more in how we approach the publishers in these conversations about, the appropriate strategies, terms of, of selling those books. yeah. alan i want to get your perspective on that and then i want to talk about the library legislation that lisa referenced because i know you have a bill in connecticut. sure. yeah. that's that's what i was going to kind of dive here, if you don't mind me, just right. so, yes, lisa referenced e-book legislation happening around country. connecticut, i think is really on the of this. but i talk about what have what happening in connecticut. i think it's important to just sort of get on the same page about that maryland bill because that maryland bill was really what kicked all of this off. and we know the maryland bill was struck down court due to federal preemption copyright law

right. the court said that the bill have forced publishers to sell into the maryland market. and, of course copy copyright holders, retain the right to sell into or not sell into any market. they so choose at any price on any conditions or terms. that's their right, the copyright holder. so maryland couldn't force publishers to the libraries that the terms and conditions outlined in the maryland bill the connecticut bill is signify arrogantly different. the connecticut says if a wants to sell to the connecticut market these are the and conditions that they must. think about the state of california and the gas mileage requirements they place on their car sales. you know, they're not telling that they must sell into california. they're saying to ford. if you want to participate in california marketplace that these are the terms and conditions that you must meet and this is the same thing that

connecticut is doing with our e-book bill now you know, all those states do not have the ability to regulate copyright. they absolutely have the ability to regulate contracts. and that's what an e-book license is. it is a contract libraries do not own their content. they rent it. and that was done on purpose. publishers who, you know, quite frankly have never loved the first sale doctrine and the ability it grants to libraries to lend out materials that they own. and so when digital books came on the market, they saw this opportunity to change the rules of the game and of letting libraries own digital contents. libraries now can't attract their digital content, and in my role in connecticut, i negotiate contracts behalf of our 950 member libraries. every day. according to state local and federal procurement law procurement law being the rules around spending state, local and

federal dollars. you know, we have these laws in place ensure that taxpayer money is being well and to be clear, hammer home the point the vast majority money funding library digital lending is taxpayer dollars. so given that you know the state absolutely has the authority only through contracts, but also through procurement law to enact rules around e-book purchasing. and, you know, and publishers are really been skirting procurement law for the last years. and and to be clear, libraries are equally at fault for not using this tool that's been in our toolbox along to negotiate for a better terms and conditions. but with this law. in connecticut, we are you know, we're pushing for change. we're pushing to have a seat, the negotiating table, because our efforts to advocate for better pricing terms and conditions from publishers over the last, you know, 20 years has gotten has gotten us nowhere.

and it's really not a sell. the legislators, when you tell that libraries spending public are being charged six times more than general consumers for digital books and the kicker is that they disappear after two years and it isn't as if authors are making six times more when a library's purchase book, they make the same amount. if library buys their book or the or if the consumer buys it. publishers are just pocketing the difference. i you know, i like to liken it to the department of transportation being forced to pay six times more for asphalt than your neighbor a driveway contractor and then having all of our roads disappear every two years. there's no other that, you know, gets away with the government and that gets away with not negotiating with the government. you know, in connecticut, i'm happy to say that we're working closely with legislators to enact this legislation that would govern terms and conditions apply to e-book contracts in the state. and we hope that this is a model

for other states moving forward and, i will just point you to the e-book study group website. e-book study group dot org to learn more about what's happening in, connecticut and many other states around the country, hawaii, massachusetts, rhode island, new hampshire new england coming in for the web. well, edward, you said talked about more strategic with publishers. and lisa, i know you have feelings on this, too is is legislation something you support in that you think that you know other, states and your states perhaps should be at edward or start with you you about be more strategic with publishers is this something that should be part of the arsenal at least is part of it because? i think that, you know, at the federal both national level, federal level, there needs to be protections that help us at the state and local level. and so i think that there needs to be legislation enacted. so that we can have fair pricing, be fair in how purchased these materials of and

i don't believe in overegged reason and i don't want to you know i don't want it to be a thing where it's managed to the level where it creates. i mean, for public libraries, it's about increasing access to information, you know, how do we leverage user spaces in order to level the playing field, in order to provide equitable access to just information the content. and so i think legislation is the key to is part of the in terms of working with publishers. yeah. lisa, love to have your perspective. well, first of all, shout out to ellen to compare asphalt to books, to digital. good job. i would say yeah good legislation and you know we have to be open to the fact marilyn tried and. there was a first step and i'm thrilled hear what connecticut is doing because i that's really where we you know it's the contract you know that's why quite honestly i led a boycott

of macmillan a couple of years ago because it they violated the contract they selling to us and you know the was you sell us books digital and they said, no, we're not going. and i said, okay, then we're not buying. it's a very simple concept, but it really gets back to what ellen is saying, that we have to stand up more, be more business. like, i hate to say that, but because, you know, just be a little more objective to it. and i like not to have to use legislation, but it's not working. so we have we have to use it. and i am thrilled. see, these states such as connecticut and hawaii. and at first maryland trying it out to see where we need to go. but i think we need to continue and not be put out by failure because that's how this that's how happens it just isn't always happen. the first round of the second round. really good point. and i live in the land of amazon. i mean, i tell you right now, i

mean, you know, amazon down the street, their headquarters, and they won't sell to us audible. they won't sell audible, won't sell the library so you know i visit frustrate me because again our customers don't understand why they can't get a title and they blame us and it's like no it's not us. we would buy it for you, but it's not for sale. i can just add in one thing here. you we have significant leverage in the marketplace. the money that we spend in ebooks is not a it is not just, you know, a spec, you know, and, you know, here in connecticut, we are taking a risk. we're saying, know if you want to sell the libraries these the terms and conditions and you know they could they could walk away. but we believe that you it is it is worth walking this road to try to further our negotiations to try to further the discussion because quite frankly, nothing

else has really worked since this. and and i will say that if you do go and look the connecticut legislation, i that we have done a really good job of writing. you know we're really open piece of legislation that would encourage negotiation we are not dictating pricing we are not dictating lending terms we are not dictating loan periods. we creating space for these conversations to happen between publishers and libraries. yeah. you know i want to bring up with this all really comes to and that's especially in this moment in time we're diversifying our collections is really important you know it's not like if if prices were more in line for some of the bigger bestsellers correct me if i'm wrong but your libraries would buy more titles from more indie publishers from more authors you would be able to buy collect more broadly for

your libraries. that's what we're talking about here, is it not, lisa? i'll ask you, is that you would buy more if you had better. yeah. and like i said, mean, it's the old lost leader. i mean, you know, you go into the store and maybe the locus is marked down, you don't make as much, but you buy more of it. you bring more people in to buy it. and libraries have always been pushing this product. so the product we've been pushing since 20 years ago is digital. we the customers, those argue, but we created customers because we were the first to adopt it and we modified it. we worked hard when that when the the apps were clunky there were no apps back then we pushed better downloading more simplistic were the better for and it was of annoying that we were the better all these years we created need and we certainly created demand during covid and it's not recognized that that we

work in partnership with our publishers. they can't exist without us. we can't exist without them or we can exist. but it would be a very a, very sad world. so yes, i think we got some traction here and i think we need to continue. and i like again, really proud of the work of my colleagues across country that have really stepped up and really tried to come up with sane and logical solutions for for basically selling product. yeah. edward, i'm assuming that, you know, if you got a better deal on digital resources, you'd still spend 100% of your budget collections on books. that money would still go to publishers and authors, right? i'm sure there are a lot holes that you would love to be able to fill in your collection or things you would like to be able to add to correct think. you know, like all public libraries, we're committed to providing free, open access to these material to the digital

content. and so, you know, and even in support of illinois and connecticut, i think that the publishers walk away from that legislation, don't want that as an industry should we should stand with connecticut in order to make sure that that come back to the table and address these concerns that we have. i mean, i agree with lisa. you know, we have already audience really to consume these materials that they and they can't get enough of it and so with that the publishers to understand and recognize that what value we bring to to their industry. alan i'm, going to ask you for another word on this and ask you also you can tell us how you think the bill is going to fare. sure. so just to kind of go back to that diversifying collection for just a second, that same e-book library consortium that i talked a little bit earlier shared with me that they spend 30 to 40% of their e-book budget just on repurchasing titles that have expired and still have

significant number of active holds significant not just one or two holds, but enough that they really need to rebuy it like that same budget ratio of replacement versus new items is really out of whack when compared to replace saying virtue versus like purchasing new physical books. right. spend very little of our collection budgets annually to replace physical items. so yeah, if you're going to spend 30 to 40% of your budget just to keep the holds ratio down or to repurchase an item that is expired. yeah, that's significant and limits your ability to build a broad, deep and diverse collection. and that is something that has resonated with legislators here in i am really. i consider myself lucky to live in a state that shares values and so when we talk about

building diverse collections to legislators they're in on this, you know, quite i don't know how the legislation is going to all you know shake here in connecticut the land of steady habits it takes government is a has a just a beast and so we're doing our best over here and we don't get it across the finish line. this year, our session ends in early june. then we have legislators on tap too to go another round next year. well, we're up against the clock here. we're out of time. you know, on the way out, i just want to ask each of you to offer a quick take away from this discussion. you think things need to go. maybe a final word of advice to your tour publisher friends. lisa, we're we're your allies. publishers. were your friends we want a

byproduct and we want to work with you just don't it so darn hard and you're going to outpace the market because as alan said, when 30 to 40% of budgets are in ribeye, that's not good for any us. you know, be open to inviting us to the conversation, you know, let us be part of the decision making process and, how that how we purchase these items. i mean, i think that we can come up with solutions and we trusted partners in this in this market and ellen, you get the last word today. you know, i don't think that anybody is happy that we have to resort to legislate and to get publishers to come to table and negotiate. you know, i know that i would much rather spend time doing something else. but the future of e-book lending is is really in jeopardy if publishers and libraries can't find a better sustainer path forward. and you know, the truth is that we share similar values and we're much closer together than

we are apart so i'm i am open to these conversations. that's a great to close on this has been a terrific conversation really illuminating as to where we are in the digital market coming out of the. lisa rosenblum edward ellen paul, thank you soon about book.

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